Date: Wednesday, 07 Aug 2013, 10:32 AM | Message # 1
Rihays, Master of Many Names
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This is just a thought concerning the post on the Tumblr, the "Good morning, it's Saturday." From Curufea:
"Since the live in enclosed cities Gallifreyans never say good morning or other referances to the location of the sun."
It is marked as coming from an "unreliable or unconfirmed" source, but I thought it was interesting.
But that's not really the point of this. Because then I thought, How would Gallifreyans say "Good morning" etc. if they have twin suns? What is their orbit like, their hours (relating back to keeping and chronicling time), what do they consider night and day, morning and evening? Some of the questions might need some sort of astrophysicist genius, but I open it up to discussion. "Everybody knows that everybody dies." -River Song
Ooh very interesting question! I've been doing some reading about this, listing the facts that we have and trying to figure out some possibilities.
What we know about Gallifrey: (Curufea is my main source here) -Gallifrey orbits around two stars. There is little information about the primary one, which (as far as I know) doesn't have a name, apart from the fact that it is a G-type main-sequence-star. The second star, Pogar, is probably much smaller and not providing as much light. It rises in the south. -One source seems to indicate that nights are very short on Gallifrey, although another page of the site mentions that days are 18 hours long, divided into 9 hours of daylight and 9 hours of night.
From what I've read, many planetary systems actually have two or three stars. Kepler-16b has two stars, and Gliese 667Cc would have three, even if Gliese 667C is very distant from the other two stars and may not emit that much light.
Without information about the mass of Gallifrey's stars and their orbits, it's difficult to figure out what "day" and "night" may be. There are a few possibilities: -The two stars are "twins": they rise and fall with each other. (That can happen if they orbit each other closely and Gallifrey orbits both.) -The two stars are "close stars" and appear in different parts of the sky. -Gallifrey orbits between the two stars or around the two of them one after the other (not very scientifically possible, as that would result in a chaotic orbit).
With two stars, I can imagine we wouldn't have a day/night dichotomy, but a trichotomy "complete night/one star shining/two stars shining". As for concepts such as "morning" or "afternoon", I'll have to think harder and try to make sense of all this. I suppose daylight time may have to be divided into different parts, with possibly the culmination two stars, simultaneously or not... **goes back to play with Universe Sandbox**
-The two stars are "twins": they rise and fall with each other. (That can happen if they orbit each other closely and Gallifrey orbits both.) -The two stars are "close stars" and appear in different parts of the sky. -Gallifrey orbits between the two stars or around the two of them one after the other (not very scientifically possible, as that would result in a chaotic orbit).
Well, if you remember in "Gridlock" the Doctor mentions that the second sun (specifically the "second" sun) would rise in the south.
"In order to protect Gallifrey from Vampires, the solar engineer, Omega, constructed a new Second Sun, which he added to Gallifrey's system."
"Because of the twin suns the planets in system have very short nights."
It might also be, then, that Gallifrey doesn't quite have "night" as we do, maybe just some form of very dark or deep evening. I also think this rules out the dual-orbit.
"Gallifrey's diameter is about 3 times that of Sol III (Earth). Despite this the gravity, orbital radius, star type, pressure, temperature, and oxygen levels are the same as Earth."
"The Kasterborus Constellation might be in the Sagittarius constellation (center of the galaxy) in the Earth skies. In this area of space stars would be clustered so tightly that they would only be about 1/10th of a lightyear apart."
I'm guessing then, that the stars themselves are smaller if Gallifrey can be larger than Earth but have relatively similar orbits and atmospheric conditions. Either that, or, because the stars are so close together, the combined gravity keeps Gallifrey in a single orbit. And since they're so close, too, their light in the sky might be a little brighter, adding to the "not-quite-night" theory. "Everybody knows that everybody dies." -River Song
Date: Saturday, 10 Aug 2013, 0:26 AM | Message # 4
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There are a lot of options for interpretation, but from a linguistic viewpoint, I think having two stars would then make more options than just "morning/afternoon/evening/night". If there are points where a single star is in the sky, there would be words from the timing of that; "morning - first star" "afternoon - both stars" "evening - second star" "night - no stars" is probably the simplest we could get it, but just like we have "noon" and "midnight" which refer to specific clock times, we might have hours referred to as "first rise/set" "second rise/set". More complex systems could also refer to each star having their own "morning/afternoon/evening/night", meaning three words for morning, three for afternoon, and three for night.
Date: Saturday, 10 Aug 2013, 8:42 AM | Message # 5
Rihays, Master of Many Names
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Or maybe it would be a combination of the two.
"Good morning noon."
Where the first is the position of the first sun and the second the position of the second sun. Or they might have entirely different concepts linking the two.
"Good quarter-half."
Relating to the suns' positions across the sky (quarter up, half across, quarter down [understood])
Or maybe it has nothing to do with sun positions and is based on the color of the sky, anything from deep black of absolute night to a brighter orange when both suns are in the sky.
"Auburn sky to you," = Good morning/evening.
My 0.02. "Everybody knows that everybody dies." -River Song
So I found some things about possible positions of binary star systems and how, based on star position and planetary orbit, days might be laid out. (I kinda made that up to look smart; I have no idea what I'm doing.)
First are a couple pictures of a planet called Keplar-b in the system of Keplar. (NASA isn't exactly known for its creativity, yeah?)
It almost looks like the stars orbit each other and the planet hangs on for the ride (like a water skier or snowboarding behind a four-wheeler). That would be considered a stable orbit.
"Two stars very far apart, with a planet orbiting close to one of them and basically ignoring the other. The influence of the second star would range from "brightest thing in the night sky but it's still night when it's out" to "not even visible to the naked eye from the planet", depending on the distances and stars involved (from the position of the main two stars of alpha Centauri, you couldn't see Proxima, for instance)." -Credit
But since the second sun rose in the south and made the silver leaves shine, this is highly unlikely.
""Close Stars" - The suns may occupy different parts of the sky, indicating that one sun orbits the other farther out than the planet. Subtype II a: "Bright And Dark Seasons" - With low axial tilt or near the equator, at one point both suns will appear close in the sky, and it becomes night when both set. About half a planet year later, usually one sun will be in the sky, and there will hardly be a real night. Subtype II b: "Midnight Sun" - With high axial tilt or near the poles, the outer sun may remain above/below the horizon for many years." -Credit
My personal favorite as this seems to give a little rhyme and reason, though little explanation is given as to the day/night/seasons.
""Something resembling a Trojan orbit, with the two stars and the planet forming the points of a triangle that keeps its shape as it rotates (it's not quite an equilateral triangle: That depends on the two primary objects having significantly different masses). In this case, the suns would always be 50-some degrees apart in the sky, and you'd have double-day for about a third of the day-night cycle, full night for about another third of the cycle, and single-day with only one of the two suns up for the times in between." -Credit
I personally think this unlikely just for the fact that there are other planets in the system and they are all stable orbits (as near as can be told) and unless every planet is in a very meticulous (and all in the same type of orbit) this is unlikely.
"A planet that orbits binary stars like Tatooine might have some major weather problems due to stars eclipsing each other. ["For any arrangement that could lead to a habitable planet, you'd probably be looking at the two stars having a period of mere days or so around each other. The eclipses would be both short enough and frequent enough that the effects would just average out."] According to Wikipedia, the difference in solar energy due to the Earth's tilt can be 25% between summer and winter at 65 degree latitude. Yet, a star eclipsed by its binary twin would mean a reduction of 50% of the solar energy (assuming the two are equal in output). Plants an animals would have a very hard time coping - every once in a while, you'd have to deal with cold snaps in the middle of a spring or summer that could interrupt growing seasons. An eclipse during winter would make the winter that much worse - an otherwise Earth-like planet would be getting a quarter of the solar radiation it was used to during the summers." -Credit
Yeah, I know, Wiki is referenced, but it's a starting point.
This might explain Gallifrey's wild seasons or no seasons (even if it's talking about Tatooine), and Gallifreyans' use of weather control and their need for domed cities.
On Earth, the sun is a relatively stable source of light, with the solar insolation or energy we receive only varying by 0.1 percent or so. "As a result, we don't need to worry about what the sun is doing, at least over time-scales of years to decades," Orosz said. "For a planet around a binary system, there can be changes in the insolation of several percent on the time-scale of days to weeks. In addition, if the planet's rotation axis is tilted, then that also has an effect. Therefore the seasons are rapid and complicated."
"Also, let's say for the sake of discussion that the planet's rotation period is 24 hours, just like the Earth," he added. "Because you have two suns instead of one, you can have more than 12 hours of daylight, depending on the positions of the stars at sunrise or sunset."
In addition, since all the circumbinary planets the Kepler space telescope has discovered have orbits closely aligned with the orbits their stars have with each other, "you would see your suns eclipse each other on a regular basis," Orosz said. "In the case of Kepler-47, when the secondary star passes in front of the primary, the total light drops by 15 percent. This would happen every 7.5 days or so." -Credit
"Earth would be even chillier [with the twin suns of Tatooine]. "If you replaced our sun with those stars, we would be even colder than 200 Kelvin, because we're farther out than this Tatooine-like planet," he told Life's Little Mysteries." -Credit
Gallifrey is 3x larger than Earth but is about the same distance from its suns, so it is likely the suns themselves are smaller and hotter.
"One of the stars on the outer edge of the constellation is a red giant which contains the storm belt (filled with ruined spaceships)." -Curufea
I don't think this is one of the twin suns, but I put it here for discussion.
So...DISCUSS.
I'll start.
.Theory 1. Gallifrey's sun orbit each other (as in the Keplar system). This is the most stable orbit for an ancient planet. .Problems. Both suns would have to rise in the south which means a very odd planetary rotation. .Days/Nights. Days would likely be up to 20 Earth hours with not quite a full night. .Seasons. Since Gallifrey is described as having up to 24 seasons or no seasons, it's likely the stars are smaller and hotter than the Sol system. .Quirks. Because the stars orbit each other, every so often (assuming similar to Keplar, every 7.5 days) there would be a solar eclipse and total light would drop. .Thoughts. If the stars merely orbited each other, mornings and evenings would be relatively the same as on Earth, though with shorter nights. 360-day years (assumed) divided by 7.5 (for the eclipses) comes out to a straight 48. 48 weeks, 48-hour clocks? If not 7.5 days eclipses (ie, not the same as Keplar), maybe they mark weeks on Gallifrey (eclipse-day is Monday, etc.). If months are consistently 27 days, what are weeks, if they have weeks?
.Theory 2. Gallifrey's primary sun stays where it is and the secondary sun has its own orbit. Less stable than theory 1, but accounts for second sun rising in the south. .Problems. Second sun would have to have a very consistent and precise orbit to avoid damaging Gallifrey's orbit, unless it acted more like a moon and orbited the planet. .Days/Nights. Assuming the second sun acted like a moon, days would be very hot and there would never be a real "night." If it didn't orbit Gallifrey and instead had its own orbit, it would have to be very close to be considered a sun and not just a close star, in which case it would likely throw off the planet's orbit around the main star. .Seasons. If a "moon" seasons would be very hot. If a separate orbit far away, similar to Earth. If separate orbit close to Gallifrey, again, very hot. .Thoughts. Would like to figure out a steady orbit or example to make this work.
And those are just theories from someone who is not an astronomer by any means and got by in Physics II with a happy B.
Note: We're only working on the basics in order to establish times of day and greetings, weeks, seasons, etc. Further discussion on the intricacies of binary systems, involving very technical terms and sciency, spacey-wacey stuff understood only by physicists and astronomers, may be taken elsewhere. Thank you. "Everybody knows that everybody dies." -River Song
Date: Saturday, 17 Aug 2013, 7:59 AM | Message # 7
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Reading through this, I have to wonder what the meter of time is for them. As humans we generally use three; the Earth's rotation, the moon's orbit, and earth's orbit. The first two are easily observed, and the last requires a little more effort.
Other meters include the observed period of Venus, the oscillation of a cesium atom, and the perversion of the Zodiac.
Weeks seem to be created for religious/civic purposes, such as a when the farmers come into the city to sell food.
So besides days and seasons, what cycles would exist in a Time Lords life?
So besides days and seasons, what cycles would exist in a Time Lords life?
Well we know Gallifrey has months of 27 days (Each? Best guess.) How they're measured exactly is a little bit of a haircut. Other than that, it's described as having most everything similar to Earth. Which isn't really helpful. "Everybody knows that everybody dies." -River Song
I feel strongly that the Time Lords recognize that each meter of time (e.g. days, lunations, years) is independent from the others and inconsistent periods like on Earth, where a day day is not exactly 86.4 ks and a year is not exactly 365 days. More so the exact duration of a day and year varies. For this reason I speculate that they have some official meter of time. I would guess that the Eye of Harmony somehow serves as the official metronome of time.
To help answer the question at the beginning of the thread, I would like to put astronomical observations aside for a moment and see what we know about the day to day life of Time Lords. Presumably that Academies at least maintain some type of schedule.
What is a day to a Time Lord? Do they all sleep around the same time and morning is a state of the world, do they all sleep on an individual basis and morning is an individual experience, or do they not sleep and morning is simply an astronomical event that has no bearing on their activities?
It is important to also identify if there is any civic cycle to the life of the urban Gallefreyan. Do they by groceries, have 'weekly' observances, communal meal times? Do they bath every 37 hours and stand on their heads twice a day reciting the legacy of Rassilon?
Obviously the last quest is sarcasm, but knowing this type of information would help establish what a 'day' and 'week' mean to Time Lords.
Any thoughts?
Message edited by Actualimeer - Sunday, 18 Aug 2013, 11:53 AM
"A Gallifreyan month is probably equal to 27 days.Gallifrey time is told in 18 hour days. 9 hours of daylight and 9 hours of night. The length of the hours are dependent on the season and location.The passage of hours is marked by the ringing of bells. The number of rings denote the hour.Some Clock have 12 divisions.48 hours is division of time that is often used.A Gallifreyan Cycle is approximately 23 years."
Date: Monday, 19 Aug 2013, 11:51 AM | Message # 11
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Ooh, this is good.
Reading the above I conjecture that there is an absolute meter and a relative one (span and hour).
Let us define a 'day hour' as one-ninth the time between sunrise and sunset of the primary sun and a 'night hour' as one-ninth the time between sunset and sunrise of the primary sun.
For the purpose of this conjecture we do not need to know what these durations are, just that there is a daily rhythm.
Now, we have nine hours. This implies a division in thirds. Assuming that to be true, we can say that there are three divisions of day and three divisions of night.
Midday and midnight are easily induced by the statement above. So what are the other four tides?
Added (19 Aug 2013, 11:51 AM) --------------------------------------------- My apologies, but I’m a little all over the place right now. Treat what come next as just food of forr thought.
Moving on to weeks and months
It seems like the Gallifreyn system would be a physicists nightmare. Assuming that it all works, let’s take an inventory of the sky.
Quote
GALLIFREY'S SYSTEM edit Gallifrey was in a binary star system. The second star seemed to rise in the south in the morning, making the mountains glow. (TV: Gridlock) The main star was large and golden red. (AUDIO: The Forever Trap) The system contained five other planets (TV: The Invasion of Time), among them Karn (TV: The Brain of Morbius), Polarfrey, and an asteroid named Kasterbourous the Fibster. (PROSE: Lungbarrow)
SATELLITES edit Gallifrey had at least two large moons and a ring system, similar to Saturn in Earth's solar system. (COMIC: Agent Provocateur) One of the moons was the copper-coloured Pazithi Gallifreya, which shone so brightly it could be seen during the day. (PROSE: Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible, Lungbarrow)
-TARDIS Data Code http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Gallifrey
Again we seem to find Gallifreyns having two of everything that there should only be one of.
Side note: The wild fluctuations in solar output could explain the Gallefrayn physique.
Regarding the rising in the south problem, I may have a solution that works for theory 1. Let’s say it is winter and the primary sun is low in the southern sky. Gallifrey is orbiting on it’s own plane with an inclination points the south pole somewhat towards the sun. Now the secondary sun is orbiting on its own plane, which may bring it especially far south in the sky. As it comes into view it may indeed be rising in the south. This wouldn’t happen every day, but when it does ‘the mountains glow’.
So I would like to pursue theorem 1 since it is less likely to give me an ulcer.
So we have a ‘day’ and a ‘year’ defined by the primary sun as seen from Gallifrey.
We have a ‘year’ defined by the astronomical positions (reference topic; Zodiac Persession)
We have a cycle defined by the secondary sun. Let’s think of it as a very bright Venus, which gives us some terrestrial reference as both the Egyptian and Mayan calendars made use of Venus Cycle.
We have two lunar cycles. These may be tracked separately or fit some nice pattern that results in them being combined together.
Let’s suppose for a moment that one of these lunar cycles can easily be approximately divided into an even number of days. This would be a good candidate for a ‘week’
Using terrestrial history as a reference, I would expect a ‘week’ to be based more on a civic cycle. They may even have multiple ‘weeks’.
Of course, they might be (probably are) happy with calendars that track six or more cycles.
Message edited by Actualimeer - Monday, 19 Aug 2013, 7:38 AM
Neat. So we have both a theoretical orbit as well as working day and night hour set-up. I proposed something in the High Council, but Rhiannon has not responded and (given your theories) would love your input.
What if, instead of "morning" or "evening" we used "early" and "late." So instead of referring to the position of the sun, we just went by the point in time relative to the calendar day.
"In the early time, we'll leave for Raxacoricofalapitorious." (Yes, I know I spelled that wrong.) "In the morning, we'll leave."
But not necessarily "morning" as we understand it with the rising of the sun, just a certain amount of time relative to the day and hour. That would knock both times of day and clock-hours off our list, well, relatively.
And what about the different clock divisions? Well, what if they're merely regional differences?
So we might have:
12-Hour Clock: 1-2 = super early 3-4 = early 5 = before middle 6 = middle 7 = after middle 8-9 = late 10-11 = super late 12 = change-day
48-Hour Clock: 1-3 = first period 4-6 = second period 7-9 = middle period 10-12 = early segment period 13-15 = super early 16-18 = early 19-21 = before middle 22-23 = just-before 24 = middle 25-27 = just-after 28-30 = after middle 31-33 = late 34-36 = super late 37-39 = late segment period 40-42 = first dog 43-45 = last dog 46-48 = change-day
18-Hour Clock (1): 1-2 = first period 3-4 = super early 5-6 = early 7-8 = just-before 9 = middle 10-11 = just-after 12-13 = late 14-15 = super late 16-17 = watch period 18 = change-day
18-Hour Clock (2) Going by a 9/9 Division: 1-2 = first early 3 = first early segment 4 = first just-before 5 = first middle 6 = first just-after 7-8 = first late 9 = change-clock 1-2 = second early 3 = second late segment 4 = second just-before 5 = second middle 6 = second just-after 7-8 = second late 9 = change-day
This way, it wouldn't matter the position of the sun. There would be cultural differences (can you say jet lag?) regarding telling time, but that can be easily compensated for methinks.
"Everybody knows that everybody dies." -River Song
Date: Tuesday, 20 Aug 2013, 7:41 AM | Message # 13
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I don't see any conflict between the multiple clocks. I would just ask that you consider the purpose of each (given the scant info, this is more guess work than I like).
Think of time zones. The eastern Indiana reckons time by New York City for business purposes and western Indiana reckons by Chicago since the Hoosiers want 12 pm to be closer to midday.
Plus if you reckon time by the sun's position based on your geographic location the you have the deal with issues like your hours begin longer if are moving west.
One clock may be like GMT (referenced throughout the world, but not a true meter because every day has a slightly different duration), another maybe local civic time (the meeting will begin at this hour and by that hour as reckoned by local time), another might be personal and local (I wake up a quarter hour before sunrise). Finally, there should be a true meter that measures time independent of astronomical events and exists in an official reference frame (see Special Theory of Relativity).
I imagine the Time Lord would want these all on separate scales. It avoids confusion for the initiated and is extra confusing for everyone else.
Date: Tuesday, 20 Aug 2013, 8:06 AM | Message # 14
Rihays, Master of Many Names
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It seems like, given the present information, 18-hours would be the astro-time, 48-hours would be GMT, and everything else is local preference. But like you said...all guesswork, really. :/ "Everybody knows that everybody dies." -River Song
